Are both .380 ACP & .38 Spl NP Bore in India?

[riflemarksman]

I agree with you.....when I say shooting a 9mm I mean hitting the target and not just shooting ..........if you randomly shoot a 9mm recoil wouldn't be an issue ......even a 10 year old can do that ....but if you have to shoot a target or a 5 shot group then you would require some homework with your pistol.....and like you mentioned recoil is a personal matter I agree

My personal experience is shooting with an air rifle or pistol makes you a better shot with a .22lr or even a bigger rifle/pistol

[timmy]

I would't have discussed it since you bought the American scenario......so I gave you the Indian scenario

Excuse me, sir, but you accuse me falsely. while discussions are fun, arguments are not productive. I see no purpose in continuing to interact with you on this thread.

[riflemarksman]

Thank god you realised that this was going no where...I rest my case

[winnie_the_pooh]

.380 ACP and. 38 Spl are Permissible calibre as has already been pointed out. Ammo is however difficult to get and expensive when you do find it. Infact any handgun chambered for anything other than 9mm Parabellum/Luger, .455 Webley rimmed and .38-200/.38S&W is a permissible firearm. Theoretically you can own a .50 calibre revolver/pistol.As far as recoil is concerned, unless there are medical issues, most are able to handle the recoil of a 9mm para.in a full sized pistol pretty well. In fact larger pistols are easier to shoot accurately than the smaller pocket pistols. This is of course subjective. Varies from person to person.

[Timnorris]

Forget .38 or 9mm most gun shops in our country would not even have .32 or .30-06 ammo, one would have to place an order and then the dealer would get it.

[winnie_the_pooh]

Ammo for .32 pistol and revolver and .30-06 rifle is easy to get in my part of the woods.

[eljefe]

As Vikram says, I'm not located in India. Many gun issues in the USA are not pertinent to the Indian situation, but some are. Recoil of guns (along with many other aspects of design) are the same everywhere, so I believe my views, learning, and opinion on such topics are relevant to our discussions here.
Based on what I've shared with you about myself, I think I can constructively contribute to a discussion involving the TT, 7.62x25, 32 Auto, and 9mm.

Tim,
I used a Tok- once- mag full with some factory Fiochhi ammo.
9mil has been a bit eclectic- Browning HP with IOF FMJ ammo, a beretta 92, Glock and of late, a mate’s CZ 75 with cast.

Since the loads for the 9 have been so varied , I have a good recall of how they handle. A long time ago I did some bullseye, single hand shooting with a Colt Woodsman and a Hi Standard in .22 for a few alleged competitions.

Since many years now, it’s been 2 to CBM and 1- head with all calibers, one handed, and in weavers. How would you rate the Tok 33 Vs a similar frame/size /weight pistol in 9, using a wee bit stiff load?

Cheers

[timmy]

El Jefe: I often wish that I had a Tok in 7.62x25, and then I could make a direct comparison. I bought one of those Romanian (I think!) tins of around 1200 rounds awhile back. They say that some of that stuff is hot, intended for PPsH submachine guns. Some of the Czech stuff is supposed to be really hot.

Anyway, when you look at the figures, 7.62x25 and 9mm are in the same ballpark, in military loads.But, of course, the 7.62x25 has a lighter bullet.

As you have probably read -- it is true: when I touch off the CZ52 in 7.62x25, it is like a mini-volcano. There is a lively recoil and a HUGE noise. there's also a very nice muzzle flash. BOOM! Everyone else looks up to see what's happening. Even though the CZ52 is a little bigger than the Tok, it is lighter. Those clever Czechs have milled out the frame where they could and it's not especially heavy, though it is big.

Oddly, the Tok and the CZ52 have a "straight" grip. There is not as much angle to the barrel in either gun, and you have to tip the end of the barrel up consciously with both guns to remain on target. So, if you were to carry either has a self-defense gun, you would need to practice to compensate. The CZ52 fills my hand more than the Tok. What effect this has on felt recoil, I don't know. So, the apples to oranges list:

The CZ52 is bigger, and has a larger grip
The Tok is heavier
My 7.62x25 rounds seem "hot"

For me, overall, the CZ52 seems to have some level of greater recoil, but it's no big thing

(BTW, most of my 9mm ammo is from a lot of heap Brown Bear that I picked up on sale once. It doesn't feel so hot as my 7.62x25 ammo, though I've never chronographed either. Maybe I will do that some day.)

I got the CZ52 because we sometimes go on long trips. Often, there are long, loneley stretches of road, where you won't see another car for 25 to 50 miles, and no houses, either. I wanted something that would go though windshields and doors, and strange things can happen in rural areas away from population centers. I've experienced this several times. I wanted to make sure that my family was safe. Having a weapon surely saved me from big trouble once, but I didn't need to pull a trigger. As a signature line once read, "an armed society is a polite society."

Ah! A Colt Woodsman! Isn't it amazing, how John Browning designs are so often unsurpassed for feeling so good in the hand and shooting so well? I shure wish that I had one of those!

[eljefe]

Thanks for the edification , Timmy.
That’s true about Eastern bloc ammo- one load to use in all. PPsH or TT...
A bit of a ‘wrangler’ was a S&W mod 49 (?) in .38 spl. Absolutely point blank range type of gun, fortunately we used only the standard cop issue .38 nickel cased ammo. 158 gr I believe, and not +P
And a Bersa in.32- 3” bbl -owner was happy with 3/5 in kill zone , back in the days when iof ammo was Rs. 12-15 a round. So we put it on a makeshift sand bag etc and -lots of sight variations. Rear machined V was off by a big margin, big muzzle flip and we really tickled the target’s tail feathers.
A PPK in .32 acp showed the same flip, Off the sand bags,but had drift adjustable rear and could be zeroed to the kill zone.
The woodsman ? now that’s a very strong, indelible memory of an accurate .22

[timmy]

El Jefe, you've got it there! My Detective Special is also somewhat jumpy and with hot loads is a surprising handful. I put Pachmyer grips on it so that my little finger could help out, which is a great change (I use Pachmyers on my 1911, and they are great on it, too!) Still, as a D frame Colt is larger and heavier than a J frame Smith & Wesson, I should imagine that your experience was quite a handful, too! I can only imagine what an alloy J frame would be like.

My CZ70 in 32 Auto is a bit frisky in the hand, but it has that little magazine hook that gives a pretty nice hold. As you say, these little guns are not so easy to control. I had a 25 Auto once that was much worse. Blowback actions are also worse, as the inertia of the slide is much greater than a comparable locked breech pistol.

This is a shame, because Ed Harris did a 32 Auto reloading project and the 32 Auto is a surprisingly accurate little cartridge. I think it would be nice to have a little short barreled single shot rifle in 32 Auto for packing about on the trail.

[eljefe]

Ed Harris as in Ed Harris of ‘the load’ fame?

[timmy]

Hmmm, I'm not sure. Here are links to four articles -- check them for a second and maybe it's the same fellow. He used to work at Ruger.

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/a ... risbio.htm

https://www.grantcunningham.com/2014/09 ... ackdriver/

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=73472.0

https://www.gunandgame.com/threads/cast ... ris.77457/

[eljefe]

Yes Timmy , that’s the same Ed Harris of the ‘16 gr of 2400 being the universal rifle load’ and the chap who designed the Lee 155 gr 0.312 CB.
And that’s a splendid article on throat variances in a .32 ACP. And I did, in the dim and distant past, own a Colt officers model.32ACP...

[timmy]

El Jefe: Oh, great, I need to look that up. Although, i have to confess, I made my bed differently a few years back when I bought an 8# canister of Unique. 10 gr of that is supposed to be universal, too, for light loads.

For instance, that Lee mould you mention will do 7.62x39 duty, plus light loads in Mosins, if it works out. But, for higher power cast loads in rifles, I need to settle a dilemma: AA5744 vs IMR4198.

[marksman]

.38 S&W aka 38/200 British and 9mm Parabellum aka 9x19mm is a PB among handguns. where as .38 S&W Special is a NPB and is not interchangeable with Govt issued .38 revolvers. Its " S&W" which confuses the authorities who are least interested in the detailed understanding of calibers especially in the latest Arms Act,

Marksman